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On this episode, we ask big questions about how customer loyalty is formed — and how AI can be leveraged to build stronger connections with customers.

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Crafting production-grade GenAI applications

Robert Zirk: Do you remember the last time a marketing activity had you talking about a product? Perhaps a perfectly timed product placement prompted a recommendation to a friend.

Customer 1: Those running shoes are the best!

Robert Zirk: Or maybe an influencer you follow teamed up with a restaurant to release a signature menu item.

Customer 2: Did you see that burger she posted on her feed? You've got to try it!

Robert Zirk: Or maybe you found a really entertaining and informative branded podcast that answers big questions about digital customer experience...

These kinds of marketing and PR initiatives, if done well, can certainly get customers and prospects talking. But word of mouth isn't limited to your marketing or PR departments.

Your customer experience can create customer advocates who will enthusiastically promote your brand. And this is something that can often be implemented on a much lower budget.

Today I'll be joined by expert guests who will share how you can create experiences that get customers talking enthusiastically about your brand. And why you may not be generating word of mouth right now, even if your customers are generally satisfied with their experience.

So today on Questions for now, we'll ask: How can brands deliver experiences that create loyal customer advocates?

Robert Zirk: Welcome to Questions for now, a podcast from TELUS International where we ask today's big questions in digital customer experience. I'm Robert Zirk.

Jay Baer: I'm ready for questions... for, for now.

Robert Zirk: Jay is a keynote speaker, advisor, author, podcaster, tequila influencer, and seventh generation entrepreneur. From childhood, he was taught about how important customers were to his family's livelihood and that the choices customers make aren't only driven by price.

Jay Baer: It is truly an experience differential. And that goes back into the – literally the 1850s, 1860s, when my great-grandfather started doing furniture delivery. And nobody else would ever deliver furniture. You want furniture? You got to come get it. He's like, "No, we'll bring it to your farm."

And so, growing up in that culture, the primacy of the customer and not just, like, platitudes and things like that, like "the customer's always right" or whatever, but truly understanding that the experience is what actually makes people loyal to the business much more so than the inventory or the price.

Robert Zirk: And if that experience is exceptional, it doesn't just build loyalty. It can generate word of mouth, which is when customers actively recommend your business to other potential customers. Throughout his career, Jay has noticed a disparity between the emphasis businesses place on experiences that create word of mouth relative to the business value word of mouth can create.

Jay Baer: Word of mouth has been, and will always be, the best way to grow any business. This is true since the first caveman sold an arrowhead to another caveman. “Get arrowheads from Glog, he's amazing,” right? This has been true forever. Yet, fewer than 1 percent of businesses, fewer than 1 percent of businesses have a defined word of mouth strategy.

Robert Zirk: That led Jay to write Talk Triggers: The Complete Guide to Creating Customers with Word-of-Mouth.

He sought to identify how brands were successfully generating word of mouth and to address the myths surrounding word of mouth that he'd come across by working with other businesses. And one of the biggest mistakes Jay sees business and CX leaders make is the assumption that word of mouth is created simply through a great customer experience.

Jay Baer: Everybody just assumes that your operational proficiency creates word of mouth, that competency creates conversation. It doesn't.

People don't talk about how good your business is. People talk about things that they don't expect. So you should run a good business. You absolutely should be operationally sound. But that doesn't create word of mouth. What it creates is retention, right? It keeps your customers in place.

But nobody ever says, "Hey Robert, let me tell you about this thing that happened last night. It was perfectly adequate." Nobody ever says that because it's not a story.

And what we forget is that every incidence of word of mouth, whether it's truly out of your mouth or a review, right? A review is just word of mouth with shelf life. Any sort of expression of support or warning is strictly based on whether or not there's a story to tell.

This is why there's so few three star reviews. Because there's no story there, right? "Yeah, it was all right. Three stars." Like, people don't take the time to write those unless they're just review nerds.

And that's the way word of mouth works. We are wired to discuss things that are different and ignore things that are average.

Robert Zirk: Jay highlights that while an effective word of mouth strategy can work for any business, there are even greater opportunities in B2B, citing a recent study suggesting up to 90% of all B2B purchases are influenced in some way by word of mouth.

Jay Baer: And that makes a lot of sense intuitively, because B2B purchases typically have a higher degree of risk, they have a higher degree of expense, they're made less frequently, switching costs are higher if you get it wrong. And so most of the time when people are making a B2B purchase, they are going to research that purchase in more depth, they are going to go out of their way to seek out the opinions of existing customers, etc.

So consequently, the B2B side of it is, in my estimation, the place where word of mouth can actually have the greatest slingshot effect on any business.

However, you've got to do something else they didn't expect you to do, and that's what actually creates the conversation. So it's one of the great mysteries of my professional life in that B2B is where word of mouth can have the greatest impact, yet B2B is the least likely to actually engage in proactive word of mouth strategies and deployment at the CX level, which I'm still out here fighting the good fight. I'm trying to convince people one company at a time.

Robert Zirk: A business might have strategies for collecting customer feedback or training its customer service representatives. But as much as statistics show how important the ripple effects of word of mouth can be, Jay notes that a defined word of mouth strategy is still something many businesses overlook, and he offered a couple of reasons for why that is.

Jay Baer: You have to be a bit of a long term thinker to do this, right? If you're like, "Hey, we either want to do a word of mouth strategy that lasts forever or a coupon that's going to drive inbound calls Monday." Like, those are not equivalent theses, right? And so you have to be a bit of a long term visionary to be like, "Hey, we're going to start planting conversational seeds now that will pay off a month from now, a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now."

It's one of the reasons why companies don't do word of mouth as much as I think they should. It is not the fastest way to get customers, I will very much acknowledge that, but I will tell you over time, it is both the best way to get customers and the least expensive.

Robert Zirk: So what kinds of experiences can exceed expectations and prompt proactive word of mouth, or what Jay calls "talk triggers"? Jay says that there are four attributes that need to be met for a talk trigger to be effective.

Jay Baer: The first is non negotiable, which is it needs to be remarkable. It has to be a story worth telling. It has to be unexpected enough that a customer or somebody who interacts with your talk trigger is going to say, "Wow, I didn't see that coming. That's novel."

If it's not novel enough, like, if you were like, "Hey here's what we're going to do. We're a restaurant and if you buy 12 sandwiches, we're going to give you your 13th free. That's not a talk trigger. People have seen that gambit before, like, that's not going to meet the test. So the first thing, it's got to be remarkable.

Robert Zirk: The second criteria is repeatability. It can't be a one-off, or a special promotion, or something you only do on a certain day of the week, or only for a certain subset of customers.

An effective talk trigger should be something you can commit to on an ongoing basis. And Jay notes that it should go on indefinitely or until it's no longer effective.

Jay Baer: When you say word of mouth, they think stunt, right? They think surprise and delight. They think we drone dropped a birthday cake in their yard or whatever.

And that's cool. But to me, that's PR, right? That's a temporal moment. You get a spike in chatter and then that spike goes away because you just did the thing once or twice or three times.

A true word of mouth strategy is baked into your operations, which is why word of mouth done right, a talk trigger done right, is not marketing. It's customer experience that yields marketing outcomes.

Robert Zirk: Jay referenced one company that, quite literally, has a repeatable word of mouth strategy baked into their operations.

Jay Baer: DoubleTree Hotels, for example, gives out a warm chocolate chip cookie when you check in. They've been doing this for 35 years. They give out 75, 000 chocolate chip cookies a day worldwide. We did a case study with them for the book. One third of their customers have told somebody else a story about the chocolate chip cookie. That's a lot of stories. And not coincidentally, DoubleTree spends less on advertising than any other hotel in their competitive set because the cookie is the ad and the guests are the marketing department.

So the key is that this isn't "What are we going to do this week that would be wacky?" It's "What do we do in our operations, in our customer experience, that we can literally deploy forever?"

Robert Zirk: The third attribute is that it has to be reasonable. And this is something that Jay has seen many B2B companies struggle with at conventions, where some companies' booths might hold a draw for a larger than life grand prize, thinking that a luxury car or an all-inclusive vacation will interest people enough to get them talking about the brand.

Jay Baer: But what's fascinating is the research shows the exact opposite occurs. You ready? When the talk trigger is too big, it actually depresses conversation, because people don't believe it. They don't think it's true.

So you can be reasonable. DoubleTree cookies, right? It's a great chocolate chip cookie. It probably costs them a dollar. Like, it's a really good cookie. They spend 75, 000 a day on cookies or whatever, but they're not giving you a car, right? So it doesn't have to be huge. It just has to be different.

Robert Zirk: And the final attribute of a good talk trigger is that it has to be relevant – something that aligns with your story.

Jay Baer: It has to make sense in the context of your business and who you are and what you are, right? This isn't randomness because otherwise the conversation becomes, "I don't understand why they're doing it." So you want it to be thematically tied to the business.

Robert Zirk: Jay shared a great example from a car dealership in Brisbane, Australia that found a way to provide something unexpected, but still relevant.

Jay Baer: They've got a green roof with all kinds of plants and stuff up there for ecological reasons and on the roof of the dealership, they've got a bunch of beehives to pollinate the plants and what have you. When you take your vehicle in for service, when you pick it up, in your cup holder is a little jar of honey with a handwritten hang tag that says, "Yes, this honey was produced above the dealership. Hope you enjoy it."

It's awesome because the honey was from above the dealership. Now, if it was just random honey, not made above the dealership – it was just like, "you get honey." It wouldn't work as well because you'd be like "Why? Is this dealership owned by a bear? They just love honey here? I don't understand this."

The best talk triggers make the most sense, but yet are still unexpected enough that you want to tell your friend a story.

Robert Zirk: Jay emphasized the difference between a satisfied customer and a customer advocate. A satisfied customer might offer a recommendation if the topic comes up naturally in conversation.

Jay Baer: Let's say you're out to dinner with friends and somebody says, "Hey, I'm thinking about changing car insurance providers. Didn't you change car insurance providers recently?" You're like, "Yeah, I did. And I went with whatever. And these guys are amazing. You should go there too."

Robert Zirk: That's word of mouth, but it's reactive. If you weren't asked, you wouldn't be talking about car insurance to your friends, family, or colleagues.

Jay Baer: What really builds companies, though, is proactive word of mouth, and this is where you switch from a satisfied customer to a true advocate. And in this scenario, you're out to dinner with the same group, and the topic of conversation is the NFL...

Robert Zirk: That's the National Football League...

Jay Baer: ...draft, and you say, "Yeah, I hope we get a new cornerback too. But between picks, let me tell you about the experience I had recently with this insurance company. I never saw this coming. It was amazing. I can't believe how good this experience is." So the difference is you are inserting the topic into the conversation as opposed to passively answering a question once it was addressed to you. That's when somebody crosses over from satisfied customer to an advocate.

Robert Zirk: Our next guest wrote a book all about creating customer advocates, and she was actually recommended by Jay via word of mouth for this episode.

Brittany Hodak: I remember as a kid, I was so fascinated by brands. My mom hated taking me to the grocery store because I would insist on buying the brand from my favorite TV commercial or billboard or an ad in the newspaper or a magazine.

Robert Zirk: That's Brittany Hodak. She's an award-winning entrepreneur, customer experience speaker, podcaster and author of Creating Superfans: How To Turn Your Customers Into Lifelong Advocates. 

From a young age, Brittany wanted to work in the music industry and she eventually went on to work at record labels and entertainment companies. Along the way, she noticed that some artists had huge fan bases and others didn't, but also that the size of an artist's fan base didn't necessarily correlate to how talented the artist was or how good their music was.

Brittany Hodak: And what I started to see again and again was that the artists who had the staying power, the ones who built the communities that wanted to come back, that wanted to tell their friends, that wanted to have this not just be, like, a few hours of fun on a Friday night, but part of their lifestyle, were the artists who were most connected to the fans.

And it hit me. Superfandom is a two way street. If you want your audience to love you, you've got to love them back. And in many cases, you've got to love them first. You've got to show them that you want to invite them into the story. You want to invite them into everything that's happening. And once I had that realization, I thought, "Wait, this isn't just about music. This is everything, everywhere, all around me."

I went back to school. I got a master's degree in consumer behavior and marketing. I took all these psychology classes and I started to realize that everything that I had been saying to artists, everything I had been talking about inside the record labels were true of CPG brands, were true of B2B brands, were true of startups, were true of Fortune 10s.

Like, everyone needed to make their customers feel more of the love so that their customers would continue to come back and would tell their friends. So they would go from being just someone who showed an affinity for this product or service to someone who couldn't stop talking, would not stop advocating about the experience, about what it feels like to be part of this community of people who love this thing.

Robert Zirk: Or, in other words, a "superfan".

Brittany Hodak: I define a superfan as a customer or stakeholder who is so delighted by their experience that they become an enthusiastic advocate.

Robert Zirk: So here's how Brittany breaks that down. For starters, they're a customer or stakeholder first before anything else.

Brittany Hodak: This isn't someone who loves you because they know you socially. The customer or stakeholder, they've actually done business with you that gives them the credibility to advocate in a way that's going to hold some weight.

Robert Zirk: Second, superfans have to be delighted by their experience. Brittany shared that there are really only three types of customer interactions: ones that leave the customer feeling better, ones that leave the customer feeling worse and ones that leave the customer feeling the same as before, with the last type being the most common.

Brittany Hodak: To the extent that you can interrupt that pattern, that you can leave your customer better than you found them, even if it's in those micro moments, you are going to go from being a neutral to a positive, which is a pattern interrupt in their brain and they're going to remember.

So in my book, I talk about this idea of intentional experience design, looking at all of the predictable, repeatable moments that you know are going to happen along a customer's journey. It could be before they buy your thing, after they've already bought your thing, during the experience itself, doesn't matter.

There are predictable things that you know, to a certain degree, are going to happen to most, if not all of your customers. So ask yourself: in that moment, what can you do to elevate it to make it feel special?

I was at the dentist yesterday. I love my dentist because as you're leaving, the very last thing that the hygienist says to you is, "Would you like a smoothie or maybe a coffee?" and they've got a smoothie bar and a coffee bar. It looks like you're going into a coffee shop when you go into the dentist and they send you on your way with a smoothie or a coffee or whatever else you order.

It's an amazing way to end the visit. Because normally when you end a visit, what are you thinking about? Either the bill that you just paid or the fact that you've now made this appointment and you've got to come back in six months or whatever it is. So they are redesigning that last moment, that last touch point before you leave.

Robert Zirk: And lastly, a superfan is created when the delight they feel from that experience leads them to become an enthusiastic advocate.

Brittany Hodak: And what I mean by that is when they have the opportunity to recommend you, they do. And research has shown that a customer that comes to you as a referral is five times more likely to refer more business to you.

So that's where these superfans become incredibly important. Not just because you've got an army of people out there talking about how amazing you are, but because the customers that they send your way are much more likely not just to make a purchase, but to continue to tell more customers, to continue this amazing inbound marketing influx of people who don't want to work with someone who does what you do. They want to work with you.

Robert Zirk: And there's always the potential to look at things differently. As Brittany points out, even a negative experience can be quite literally elevated.

Brittany Hodak: This elevator that is at the Legoland Resort in Winter Haven, Florida. We've been to Legoland a bunch of times. I've got two little boys and they love it. And there is an elevator there that is probably their favorite part of the entire resort.

You walk into it, there's Lego decals all over the walls, like dancing mini figures. There's a mirror ball, there's lights, there's music. Every time the door is closed, it's like the Bee Gees and ABBA. It is a party. My kids love dancing in that elevator.

The first time we stayed at the resort, it wasn't until probably like the 10th time I'd been in the elevator, probably like the third day we were there, that I realized it was the slowest elevator I think I've ever been in my life. Literally the slowest elevator. The whole song "Dancing Queen" would play between when we got on at the fifth floor and when we got down to the lobby. It took forever. And because it was a small elevator, it was usually just one family at a time because it was hard to fit more than four people in, especially if you had luggage.

That should have been a disaster, but instead of me being annoyed at how small and how slow this elevator was, it took me three solid days to even notice. And once I noticed, I didn't mind because they had taken this small elevator and transformed it into an experience.

And the reason I love to share that story is because whoever is listening to this right now, I promise you that in your business right now, there are some slow elevators. Your customers might be feeling them. Your team might be feeling them. You might be feeling them. And instead of just throwing your hands up in the air and saying "I can't replace the elevator" or "I can't make the elevator go any faster," ask yourself if there's anything that you can do to re-engineer that experience.

Can you make it feel different? Because in almost every instance, you can use creativity and intentionality, sometimes for no money at all, to completely reimagine this experience.

Robert Zirk: And slow elevators can exist in any type of business.

Brittany Hodak: The fact that you're digital-first or digital-only does not excuse the fact that on the other side of those ones and zeros is a real person, is a customer with a life, with a story, with a family who wants to be treated like an individual person, not just another user, not just another order number.

I placed an order for makeup online a few months ago. My sister in law had raved about this brand. She was like, "You've got to try it." So I placed this order. And a couple of days later, we got a terrible ice storm and there was no mail, no delivery. Honestly, I completely forgot about the makeup order 'cause it was like, we're about to run out of milk and we can't get out of this neighborhood 'cause all the streets were iced over.

And I got an email from that makeup company that said, "Hey, Brittany, we noticed that your shipment has been delayed. We're so sorry. We know you've got places to go and people to meet and even though shipping is out of our hands," and then they said "Reminder: you can check the status of your shipping at any time by clicking here", " We wanted to send you a gift while you wait. Here's an e-code for $15 off your order. Thank you again. We hope you love your makeup when you get it. Let us know. Stay beautiful."

And I thought, "What an amazing touchpoint." Because maybe I had been, every single day, refreshing that order page, saying like, "Where's my order? Why isn't UPS coming? Why isn't the mail truck coming?" So the fact that they proactively built a system to say, "Let's check the status of orders and when something is delayed, let's get ahead of it before the customer has an opportunity to reach out to us and say, "Where's my thing?", or to go to FedEx or UPS or whoever and say, "Where's my thing?", own it.

We know it's not your fault. But instead of saying, "Don't talk to us, talk to the carrier," you're saying, "We're so sorry you don't have it yet. Here's a gift while you wait." That was an amazing touch point, an amazing way to transform a digital slow elevator into something that I'm still talking about.

There was a 14 day trial and they said as part of that email, "Don't worry, your 14 day trial doesn't start until the day your package is delivered, so you don't have to worry about it." And in that moment, I was like, "I'm not sending this stuff back, even if it's not the right foundation color, or even if I don't love the lipstick, because how great are they?"

In an alternate universe that could be handled completely wrong, but through a little bit of empathy, a little bit of strategic digital engineering of "this is what I want this experience to feel like", I now have reordered from them and will continue to support them because of how they make me feel.

Robert Zirk: On the B2B side, Jay cited an example by a lumber business in California called WindsorONE.

Jay Baer: So their customers are all carpenters and contractors and construction companies, and if you're a carpenter, you're pretty particular about your wood, but there's a lot of different companies that supply lumber in California. WindsorONE just happens to be one of them. So their thought was, "How do we get more customers disproportionately? How do we do it at a low cost? Let's have an actual word of mouth strategy. Let's create a talk trigger."

So what they did is every board that they manufacture has on the reverse side, a stamp. Just have a rubber stamp. And it says, "Call Kurt for a shirt" and an 800 number. Call Kurt for a shirt. So you're out there on the job site, you got your saw out, you're getting ready to trim up this piece, you're like, "Who's Kurt? What? What are you talking about? Call Kurt for a shirt?"

So you call it up, hit the number, "This is Kurt!" You're like "Okay, yeah, it says call Kurt for a shirt."

"Yeah, I'm Kurt. What's your name?" I'm Jay Baer.

On this episode, we discuss a longstanding focus for customer experience leaders — loyalty — and the role of CX delivery in creating customer advocates and word of mouth.

Episode cover image for Questions for now, a TELUS Digital podcast, featuring an illustrated character holding a mobile device and sharing a five-star recommendation with a friend.

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Since publishing this episode, we've rebranded to TELUS Digital.

On this episode, we discuss a longstanding focus for customer experience (CX) leaders — loyalty — and the role of CX delivery in creating customer advocates and word of mouth.

According to Nielsen, 88% of consumers trust recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. Despite the evidence that word of mouth, facilitated through exceptional customer experiences, remains a pivotal factor in shaping business outcomes, many businesses do not have a defined word of mouth strategy.

Our expert guests share their perspectives on how to transform satisfied customers into loyal advocates. Along the way, they discuss brand 'superfans' and how to introduce unexpected moments along the customer journey — called 'talk triggers' — to prompt proactive word of mouth.

Listen for the compelling insights of Jay Baer, author of Talk Triggers: The Complete Guide to Creating Customers with Word-of-Mouth; Brittany Hodak, author of Creating Superfans: How To Turn Your Customers Into Lifelong Advocates; and Rajiv Dhand, regional vice president for Asia Pacific and Africa at TELUS Digital.

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Watch this recorded webinar from Everest Group and TELUS Digital (formerly TELUS International) for new insights to help you skillfully transform your digital customer experience.

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On this episode, we discuss the importance of reducing customer effort — and the steps brands can take to design and deliver seamless customer experiences.

How can brands deliver experiences that create loyal customer advocates?

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